Complex PTSD Unpacked with Cindy Payne

Perfectionism can look like ambition from the outside, but inside it can feel like a nonstop attempt to stay safe. Natasha Joy Price sits down with therapist, speaker, and Rooted Counselling and Wellness founder Cindy Payne to unpack complex PTSD, the kind of trauma that grows in relationships and disrupted attachment rather than one isolated incident. We talk about why this “relational trauma” can leave you second-guessing yourself, struggling with boundaries, and stuck in patterns like people pleasing and fawning, even when you’re a high achiever who seems to have it all together. 

We also get practical about healing. Cindy explains why many trauma survivors live “neck up”, and how somatic therapy and body-centred practices help reconnect mind and body safely. We discuss micro steps such as noticing constriction versus expansion, tracking breath, doing brief body scans, and learning how emotions like shame show up physically. Along the way, we touch on why naming your experience matters, how shame thrives in secrecy and silence, and how community can loosen the grip of self-blame. 

If you’re exploring complex PTSD recovery, trauma therapy, nervous system regulation, grounding, or the link between yoga and healing, you’ll come away with clearer language and a steadier starting point. Subscribe, share the show with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more listeners can find these conversations.

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Transcript

Welcome And What To Expect

0:02

So, welcome everybody to another edition of Balm to the Soul. I'm your host, Natasha Joy Price, and I'm an energy therapist. I'm an author and I'm a podcaster. And today we have a lovely new guest, Cindy Payne. So welcome, Cindy. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm so honored to be here. Yeah. Cindy and I had a little trouble connecting, didn't we? Those time conversions of constant issues there. So Cindy is a therapist, a speaker, and founder of Rooted Counseling and Wellness. So, first of all, Cindy, just tell me why do you call your business rooted counseling and wellness? Sure. Yeah. So I'm also a certified yoga teacher as well. And the reason that I feel like that's relevant to this is before I was a licensed professional counselor, I really had a deep dive into yoga. And there was always this phrase that would come up in in class, and my teacher would say, like, you know, root to rise. And what does it really mean to feel rooted and grounded? And I don't even think I could have answered that question at the time, but something about it just really had me curious and it stuck with me. And the more I did my own personal work and healing, the more I really just kind of latched onto that idea of like, oh, before we, before we can really grow and thrive, we have to have some sort of anchoring and grounding. So that's that's how it became. And it it just never left. Yeah, no, I love that. I'm I'm um training to be a yoga instructor at the moment. The grand old age of 60, I thought good idea. I'll train to be a yoga instructor. I love it. And after the first weekend, I was thinking, you really are a fool, Tasha. What are you doing? But I have persevered. I have persevered and I absolutely love it. I do really love it. And I know what you mean about being really rooted. I think that's really important. Um, so I love that. That's lovely. Rooted counseling and wellness. So you specialize in helping high-achieving men and women who are struggling with complex PTSD. So can you just explain what the complex part is about? Why is that different from the normal PTSD? Sure. Yeah, that's a good question. And I think, you know, we often get it confused and use them interchangeably. But, you know, PTSD is really, you know, something that happens maybe more in isolation. So the classic, you know, so soldiers going off to war or being in an accident or witnessing something like, you know, a traumatic natural disaster that happens and how that leaves a lasting

Root To Rise And Feeling Grounded

3:03

effect on the body. But complex trauma is quite different in that it is born in relationships. And so it happens when we are looking for that secure attachment with our caregivers, but perhaps there's something that disrupts that. And so maybe we had a mother or a father who struggled with their own mental illness and they were unable to like attune with us and meet our needs consistently. And in fact, it can create this relational trauma where the people that we learn to be in connection with are also the people that are causing the harm. And so it creates a really difficult dynamic because those are our safety figures in childhood. But as we get older and we learn our own coping skills and we mature cognitively, it's it's uh it's confusing to us why we're having so many of these symptoms and and behaviors that were indeed born in relationships. So, so we learn from those caregivers who have their own issues. Yeah. And we learn our boundaries, even though they might not quite be right, but we learn that as a norm, in other words. That's right. Yeah. So it's it's typically a disruption in the attachment that happens early in life, and we can experience emotional abuse, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, uh, mental abuse. And so again, it creates this really confusing relationship with trust. Um, because yeah, like you said, the erosion of boundaries, or perhaps boundaries never existed, um, can just really um be problematic as we get older in our relationships. So it's really, it's really, well, one, it's very

Complex PTSD Versus PTSD

4:47

difficult, isn't it? And two, it's like having to relearn what is considered healthy boundaries or a healthy relationship when your norm has not been healthy. That's right. That's right. And for a lot of people, there's not even so much of a relearning, but there's like this whole deconstruction that happens. And so you're really building from the ground up because for a lot of these people, they've never really had that sense of safety established, you know, in their formative years. And so they have to do a lot of trial and error with what feels right in my body, what what feels safe for me, what's okay. Um, so that's where a lot of the people pleasing and the perfectionism stems from. Yes. I was gonna say, how does it show up? So it's about people pleasing, perfectionism, not sure about boundaries. Sure. Yeah, all of that. Yeah, yeah. I I heard recently um somebody say that, you know, perfectionism is really just like a a chronic uh a relationship with chronic self-doubt. Because, you know, we're kind of clinging to this uh, you know, idea of what we think is correct and in order to protect ourselves. But then the people pleasing part, I'm gonna take that a step further and even refer to it as fawning. And and fawning, you know, I'm sure you're aware, is just that it's that need inside of us to stay safe. And so we go into this kind of you know, fawn response, which it's like, I'll be whoever you need me to be in this moment. And we don't even really realize we're doing it half the time. No, yeah. No, so you're not being yourself at all, are you? You're being who who they want you to be or who they're telling you to be. Yes, yes, yeah, and and exactly. I'm glad you said that because it's more of this, like um, you know, kind of coercive control, essentially. There, there's a hierarchy um that's already been established. And do people do people actually realize uh, you know, that's what it's about? How do they make the connection that this is actually complex PTSD? How do people know that? Yeah, that's another great question because you know, in the States we use something called the DSM V to diagnose mental health disorders. Um, and the DSM V actually does not uh recognize complex PTSD um in their handbook, but the ICD does. And so I'll have clients come in and they're like, I think this might be this. Can we kind of go through some of these symptoms? And I could share with you how I'm experiencing life on the day-to-day. So high levels of anxiety around relationships. We, you know, talk a lot about how the symptoms are showing up, the frequency, the duration, the onset. Are there specific environments where you're experiencing this over others? So we kind of piece it out and come to our own conclusion. But because the DSM 5 doesn't recognize it as a mental disorder in the States, I go by the ICD um, you know, kind of framework to help clients. Yeah. It's very complicated, isn't it? Because it can be very layered. So it's it's it's almost like untangling something, isn't it? Like taking it in the knots and just trying to work your way to unraveling something. Yes, it is. It is like kind of pulling the thread on something, and then you're just left with this pile of yarn, so to speak, right? Um, but I think a lot of it too, you know, I'll have clients that will feel really discouraged because they're like, this isn't recognized in the DSM in the States, but the ICD says that it is indeed um, you know, a disorder that creates impairments in my life. And so what do I do? Because a lot of this is stems from often being told that what we're experiencing isn't actually what we're experiencing. So there's a lot of gaslighting that can happen in this. So a lot of this is self-trust work and re-establishing a framework of can I trust myself? You know, especially if you're being told something different, but you know intuitively that's not quite right for me, or that's right. Yeah, very difficult subject. So you also do a lot of body-centered practices, don't you, as well? So just um talk us through that. How does that help people? Yeah, you know, uh it's it's interesting because I think back to my own journey with this, and I'll never forget when I had uh a therapist ask me where I felt something in my body, and it was the very first time that I had ever, you know, thought about it from a mind-body connection. And I looked at her and I honestly was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And she said, Well, that doesn't surprise me because a lot of times trauma survivors are very neck up, we're very cerebral. Um, we don't like I can talk about something very disconnected from what's actually happening on a physical level. So a lot of this work starts with very micro practices of when we're talking about something, notice the difference between constriction and expansion in the body. So when you bring up a certain topic, do you do you feel a tugging or a clenching or anything closing in? And clients will, you know, be like, Well, yeah, I mean, I do feel this like, you know, twinge in my chest or like I'm short of breath. I can't, I can't take a full body inhale or exhale. So we have to start really small with that when we're getting clients to be back in their body for extended amounts of time safely. Yeah. Right. So breath, noticing tension, expansion. Um, I will sometimes lead clients in like a really brief meditation, dropping into their body, doing body scans, things like that. And then we can work up to lengthier practices of grounding um through different somatic exercises, but that's down the road. Yeah, sure. And I suppose it take it will can take a while for somebody like you say they've not even thought about it. Yeah. So then it takes a while for them to actually get that, and then it takes a while for them to trust it as well. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You know, another thing that I that comes up when you asked that question was just identifying how certain emotions specifically show up in the body. So a lot of times clients don't even realize that they're carrying shame in their body, and that shame actually shows up as a fear response. Yeah. So

Somatic Therapy And Body Awareness

11:45

I'll invite them, you know, the next time something happens where you're in shame and you want to hide or you feel like you're in trouble. Notice what happens. For a lot of us, it's a heat. Um, I know for me, like I get really hot in my face, my ears kind of start to do this ringing thing. Um, and I know immediately I'm in shame. And shame is such a low vibrational emotion, isn't it? It's very destructive. Shame and guilt are really difficult emotions to navigate, aren't they? Yes, they are. They are they're very tough, and I think a lot of people really can't even distinguish the difference between guilt and shame or earned guilt and unearned guilt. Yeah. Yeah. I always struggled with that when I first started learning um energy therapies and everything. And also the what what emotions what they are, you know. Yes. Putting a name to the emotions. Like, you know, people would say, Do you feel anger? And I'm well, anger's an obvious one, but it, you know, even that, well, how do I know that what I'm feeling is anger? There was a real disconnect as to, and if they're all mishmashed together, it's um it's a difficult process to some of these. Presumably, people have to even learn, you know, I feel that, but what am I feeling? You know, they have to learn the the net, you know, not in an obvious way, but they have to learn what that feels like and what that is. Well, and I I appreciate you pointing that out because if you think about emotion and the word emotion, emote, right? It's a very action-oriented word. It's not it's not a noun, you know, it's not an adjective, it's a verb. It is an action that your body is needing to work through and process something. So even getting clients to understand that that like, oh, it drives action, it drives reflection. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When I uh I've just recently retired, but when I was working in a very corporate environment, anxiety for me would be like literally my stomach would flip. So it's it's a really it can be very strong. It can be very um, very strong. But sometimes you you've got to work out what's triggering that as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it it's it's strong, there's a charge to it. And yet also with these unpleasant emotions, I think what a lot of us don't realize at first is that the function is typically to try and protect. So if I'm feeling anxious, there's probably this really um aware inner protector that's showing up and trying to like, you know, what can we do? What can we do to release some of this tension right now because it's not safe to feel this? So a lot of the work is teaching that part of yourself that it's okay. You used to be such a uh a shepherd for me, a protector for me, but now that I know more, I I don't need you all the time. Sometimes I do, yeah, but not all the time. And also there's a tendency of um, you know, storing it inside somewhere and just holding on to it until it comes out in a different way, like a like an upset stomach or a physical way that you know it we need to we need to release it, but we don't always do that, do we? No, we don't. Well, you know, in the in the western culture, I don't know so much about you guys, but I would consider you, you know, kind of very similar to how we treat it in the States. It's and I'm not anti-medication, so so don't get me wrong. I think that there's a time and a place for it. Sure. But does it necessarily need to be our first line of defense? I'm not so sure about that. And so can we grow some patience and some understanding around this before we try to, you know, reach for something to take the relief or to add with the relief. Numb it down, if you like. Yes, yes, yeah. And I suppose also with um people who've suffered um PTSD or complex PTSD, there's shock as well, isn't there, to some course degrees. And I found that recently myself, I had an intuitive healing and um I was holding shock in my hip. And when she released it, um I didn't have any pain anymore. But the incidence that she was talking about, I'd forgotten. I'd completely forgotten until she started talking about it. And then I thought, oh yeah, yeah. That was you know, I was a toddler, and that would have been shocking to me. That's right. So people who've got complex PTSD must hold a lot of shock in layers for each event almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I never really understood that, you know, before doing a lot of my own intuitive healing work. That, you know, when my yoga teacher again would say, like, our hips, our hips are the junk drawer of emotions. And I'm like, I don't, I don't get that. Like, I help me understand. I'm such a logical person. Yeah. But that makes a lot of sense, right? That our body holds on to the energy and energy can get stagnant. Yeah, definitely. And whenever I do restorative yoga, you know, when you're holding the poses for longer, I never sleep properly afterwards. Yeah. I always have a terrible night. And I think it's because I must have like released a lot from hips and wherever we're working with. So just another affirmation that we do hold on to this stuff and we store it in our body sometimes. We do. You mentioned intuitive healing, and it just made me rem remember that, like, you know, the the body's natural um state is to be, you know, leaning towards healing. The body is so wise, the body can heal itself in so many ways if we just can tap into that part that's you know below our consciousness. Absolutely. In fact, we almost have to have a conversation with the body, don't we? Yeah, you know, and say what's going on, what you're trying to tell me here, whatever the symptoms are, what's going on. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Really getting in tune, you know, it's really difficult to be in a fear state and also get curious about what's happening at the same time, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, it's not an easy process at all, is it? No, no. Fascinating though, and and for people who come to you, I'm assuming that it's it's not a quick fix, is it? It's something that they have to work on quite a long time. Yeah, they do,

Shock In The Body And Healing

18:53

they do, and I I always, you know, I have to be the bearer of the bad news at the beginning. You can't flick a switch and make it all better, though. We can't. And I also, you know, like to always make sure that my clients understand that we're we might have a bit of a grief whiplash going on in the beginning, right? That when we start kind of excavating a lot of this stuff, it's kind of like slamming on the brakes and all the things from the backseat of the car come flying forward sometimes. But that we can do this in a safe and contained manner. So as long as you're willing to be okay with this not being uh the flick, you know, the flip of a switch, then then we're okay. We're okay. We have some some places to start. And actually, as people, the more that work people work on themselves, the more they begin to understand how their body holds things, or you know, um, they begin to understand themselves better, don't they? Their emotions and yeah, yeah, they do. And I think to go back to the boundaries part of things, like, you know, if you grew up in a home where you weren't allowed to set boundaries or there weren't even maybe there wasn't even a conversation around it. I know for me, like, you know, I'm a 70s, 80s, 90s child. So like nobody, nobody was talking about that in my home or in homes around me, right? But but even understanding that you have the right to say, like, this is what's okay with me and this is what's not okay with me. But even how do I even come to that conclusion in the first place when I couldn't have any agency? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Why why do I know more than the adults? Sort of that that sort of um feeling. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. So you specialize in helping high achieving men and women. Is there a difference for high achieving? Is it almost that it triggers it or they reach a glass circle at ceiling that they just feel they get stuck, or how does it show up more for the high achievers? Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, I I didn't really distinguish high achieving from perfectionism, and there is a difference because again, if you go back to perfectionism, perfectionism is the way that you've learned to cope with the uncertainty in the world. And so if I can just stay on this scripted path again and do everything perfect, then I'm not I I can be I can be good, you know, um, and I don't have to take any risks. Therefore, I don't have to put myself in that situation that feels scary or unsafe for me. But actually, you know, I to go back to your question about high achieving and what happens when you hit this glass ceiling, I I see it start to unravel a little bit between the ages, I would say, of like 30 and any 60, even, you know, for women in particular, that we were raised and praised. To be good girls, to do the right thing. You know, we got a lot of really positive feedback from operating this way. But by 35, 40, you know, your estrogen levels start to decline. And we don't have the physical, the mental, or emotional capability anymore of holding all these things together. And so it starts showing up as symptoms in the body. That's where we get into this like intersection of like, oh, wait, that thing I was doing that I got a lot of success from really left me feeling empty and tired and resentful. Okay. So is also I get the impression that it's you know, you're trying to be good, you're trying to do what you're told. So that sort of is the opposite of being intuitive and creative. And yeah. So you're not letting yourself be you. You're not letting yourself blossom or go off in different directions because that's too scary. That's yes, could be a bit messy. That's right. And it and it there there's a huge risk there that I, you know, if I do this, then who am I anymore? And how will people relate to me? Is everything gonna come crashing down if I disrupt this way of thinking and being? Yeah. So it's it can be quite scary for people. But I you know, I always say, like when the pain becomes too great to hold it anymore, I think that's when you're ready. Yeah. And I think people then go and look for people like you to help them. Sure. They realize that something is not working anymore and that they have to almost like reinvent themselves and just change the next chapter. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot there's a lot of deconstructing, I would say, that's going on, right? And and oftentimes with women, the question is, who am I even anymore? Because I I was so locked into this role of the the caregiver, um, you know, the holder of all the things. And so I say, rather than ask, who am I? Let's start with what feels true for you. And a lot of times it's

High Achievers Identity And Boundaries

24:13

like, well, not this. Yeah, exactly. So for me, like I've just turned 60. So, you know, empty house syndrome, and the kids go, and you're not the mom anymore, and there's not somebody going, mom, mom, mom, every five minutes. Yeah, and you've got to find you've got something you've got to find what you want to fill your time with. Yeah. Your passion again that you might not have thought about for 30 odd years or however long it's been. Totally. Yeah. I'm glad you said that about the passion because it's like, oh my gosh, this is like the second act of my life. And this could be such an exciting rebirth of possibility of you know, who do I get to be? Yeah, what do I get to do now? There's a little bit of freedom here. It's a whole new chapter that you can achieve, hence my decision to become a yoga instructor. That's right. That's right. And I'm still working on it. It's fine. It's fine. Beautiful. After the first weekend, I concluded, well, I can't be worse. So I can only get better. I love it. It was very eye-opening because it actually made me realize how inflexible parts of my body are. And actually, if you're not in pain, you don't always realize that, do you, until you start trying something like yoga or you know, Pilates or whatever. Sure, sure. That's why I love it so much. Because there's so many different types of yoga, there's so many different forms of yoga. I think what we see is like the Instagram version of everybody holding incredible poses, and you're like, I can't do that. But really, if you get down back to the bare basics of yoga, that has nothing to do with it. Yoga literally means, you know, union, uh union of the body and mind. So yeah. Yeah, it's and it's very spiritual, isn't it? So yeah. So we we will persevere, Cindy. That's right. So let's just also talk about your podcast because you've got a podcast, haven't you, called Reclaiming Me. So, how did that come about? How did you start your podcast? Sure, yeah. So it's really kind of it's it's been on a journey, this podcast of mine. I started originally with a co-host, and she was a fellow therapist friend, and she's still a dear friend of mine. We both have neurodivergent children, and we were really kind of on this mission to talk about these hard topics that nobody was talking about, how to raise children, um, you know, who have special needs in this world where, you know, everybody just expects you to show up and, you know, drop into performance. Um, and so, but eventually as life got really, you know, complicated as it does. My kids are older, hers is younger. And so we decided it was best if, you know, she, you know, kind of go off and spend a little bit more time with her daughter. So then I took it and I really rebranded it for myself with this reclaiming me focus. And I really wanted to, you know, hone in on the complex PTSD because, you know, me myself, I am a complex PTSD survivor. And it's where I felt the most passionate when my clients would show up and share things with me that were hitting on parts of my own experience of how I got here, you know, and and through my work with in my own therapy, I was able to uncover this and go like, oh my gosh, if somebody would have just helped me with this years ago or even named it for me, then I could have started looking at this from a more compassionate lens. And there's such shame that can be associated with this uh diagnoses that that I didn't want other women to feel like they were inherently wrong in the world, that they were born wrong, you know, that something was wrong with them. And so I thought, you know what, we need to, we need to put more language around this. Yeah, yeah. And I think the important, really important thing that you said in there was that you were, if you could name it, because I think if people realize that it is something, it's not just them being wrong, like you say, and they have a name for it. I think that helps immensely with how they move forward. Yeah, yeah, it's so powerful. I don't know if you've read Atlas of the Heart, written by Brene Brown, but she really talks about how as humans just walking around having an experience, we can really only name about four or five different emotions at any given time. Yeah. But you know, it's like to me. Happiness, bad. And that's yeah, but there's so much more that's going on, and naming things helps us feel empowered. It's not about pathologizing and sticking to something as your you know victim mentality for the rest of your life, and this is why you can't do things. Quite the opposite. It's it's freedom when you can own this stuff. Yeah. And I think it stops some level of of the anxiety as well. Yeah. You know, okay, I fit into this box sort of thing. We like to fit into groups and we do okay, yeah. We don't want

Reclaiming Me Naming Shame Community

29:40

to be out. Um we don't want to be different, do we? No, absolutely not. If we know where we fit, I think that that helps with moving forward, definitely. Yeah. And hopefully then people find a bit of peace with it all as well. Yeah. Well, yes. And like you said, you know, fitting into a box. Um, I think of it too as like, you know, finding community. When I first started really talking about some of this stuff out loud, I was amazed at how many people were like, oh my gosh, me too. I had this experience as well. You know, um, there's so much community support out there for complex trauma survivors. We just have to look for it and we have to be brave enough to, you know, to connect with other folks and say, Yeah, hey, help me understand this a little bit more. This felt hard and confusing. And talking about it helps to release the shock, um, not the sh, I was gonna say the shame and the guilt as well, doesn't it? Because you realize, okay, it it's not just me here. Right. Well, and Brene Brown, you know, again, same the one I referenced earlier, she wrote Atlas of the Heart, but she's a shame researcher and she talks about how shame needs uh secrecy, silence, and judgment to survive. Yes, yes, and so if we can bring it out into the light and say, you know what, this was something that it was out of my control. I didn't choose this for myself. It but it is my responsibility now as an adult to heal from this and to understand this so that I don't keep repeating cycles in my own family of origin. Yeah, and actually when people step up, it's incredibly brave of them, but when they set up set step up and start talking about something that they found or could find really shameful, they get so much support. They do get a lot of support because I think people, you know, they have real sympathy and they they really connect as well to that person. How would I feel in that circumstances? And so immediately they get support and community, like you say. Yeah, and I think that's um it really and it shines a light on that sort of that process, doesn't it? It does, it does, yeah. Yeah, perfect. Thank you, Cindy. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. Um and I will put all your details up about rooted counselling and wellness. So we'll put that up underneath the episode. And um presumably if people would like to contact you, um they can do so through your website. Is that the best way? That is one way for sure, is through my website. Um, and it is cindypain.com and then also um at Cindy Payne Rooted on Instagram if you're on social media as well. Um so that I would say those are probably two of the the most surefire ways. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. And of course they can listen to you on Reclaiming Me podcasts. Um so uh which platforms is is that on Apple and it is Apple Spotify, basically wherever you get your podcasts, you'll be able to find it. Yeah, brilliant. Well, thank you so much for supporting my podcast. That's very kind of you, and it's love it's been lovely to talk to you. It's really interesting subject, actually. Complex, which is the title as well, but it is um interesting. Oh, well, thank you so much, Natasha. I'm I'm excited to have you online, and I'm just I was grateful for the opportunity to to connect with you today. Oh no, it's been a pleasure. So if you've enjoyed listening to Cindy and myself have a chat, then please like and share the podcast. Um, you can also support it, and there's um a link below so you can subscribe as well for extra episodes. Um so thank you all for listening, and thank you again, Cindy. And um I will speak to you all soon.